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Economic and International Affairs Scrutiny Panel Public Hearing - Draft Unlawful Public Entertainments (Jersey) Regulations 202-
Witness: Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager
Wednesday, 3rd July 2024
Panel:
Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade (Chair)
Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier Central (Vice Chair) Deputy K.M. Wilson of St. Clement
Deputy M.B. Andrews of St. Helier North
Witness:
Mr. C. Burgher, Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager
[15:31]
Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade (Chair):
Can I welcome you to this meeting of the Economic and International Affairs Scrutiny Panel? So in a moment I will just introduce the panel and explain why we are here. Perhaps I will do that now. So I am Deputy Montfort Tadier . I am the Chair of the panel.
Deputy M.B. Andrews of St. Helier North :
I am Deputy Max Andrews , member of the panel.
Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier Central : Deputy Geoff Southern , Vice Chair.
Deputy K.M. Wilson of St. Clement : Deputy Karen Wilson , member of the panel.
Deputy M. Tadier : And you?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
I am Connor Burgher. I am Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager for the Parish of St. Helier .
Deputy M. Tadier :
So thank you again for coming in to talk to us on this review. Can I just draw your attention to the statement in front of you? It just outlines the procedures for today and what we expect and ask of our witnesses. So if you are happy with that, we can proceed. So, essentially, you probably know some of the context. We have obviously written to you in advance and given you some outline of what we are looking at. In a sense, it is quite specific. So we have called in the regulations surrounding the unlawful entertainments, which are triennial regulations. You will be familiar with them, I am sure. Essentially, these are about the Bailiff 's powers around customary law to license events, but also more specifically to deal with infractions of entertainment that has been put on without due permission. One of the things that we are looking at is the effectiveness of these regulations, but also I suppose is the fact that the Minister for Economic Development has given an indication that he wants to come in with a new framework, moving effectively from a judicial process to an administrative one, we think. We are also interested in the timeline and what might be going into that new policy and new law. So, we are particularly interested to hear from you. We know that as the biggest parish on the Island you have experience on putting events on, both within the parish hall but outside as well. So I suppose the first thing to ask is: can you just give us a bit of an outline about what your role is and what you do on a day-to-day basis in terms of this?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
Sure. I am probably a bit of a poacher and gamekeeper at the same time if that makes sense. So not only do I organise events on behalf of the parish, both small-scale and large-scale public events which are very much covered by this, we also work closely with the agencies mentioned within the law as not a regulator ourselves or member of the Bailiff 's panel but we will work in an advisory capacity alongside them. So there is not a lot of this that I do not know about or have not come across in some way. So if I could also just add thank you very much for giving an opportunity to speak to you today.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Thank you. No, that is really useful and we appreciate that often some of the witnesses that we have do an element of both in that sense. So I think that adds to your value as a witness.
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager: Thank you.
Deputy M. Tadier :
So we are currently reviewing obviously the public entertainments regulations. Briefly, these maintain the current events licensing system for permits and they are issued by the Bailiff following consideration by the Public Entertainments Panel. Could you tell us a bit about your experience that you have had in needing to apply for public permits?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
Okay. So in terms of the process, for me certainly it was quite a steep learning curve of how to do it. Lots of people on the Island think they can put an event on or think they have a great idea to put an event on, but then when it actually comes to it there is quite a lot to it that you probably do not think of. That is where people like me from the parish or the panel are generally quite supportive of what you have to do and it being an Island and it being Jersey and it is all kind of knowing each other. I know I can certainly get in touch with them quite quickly saying: "Oh, I am thinking of doing this. Can you give me some advice on it?" Obviously, I think there is an expectation when you are doing a public event that you follow some form of best practice. Normally, it is a U.K. (United Kingdom) document called the Purple Guide is certainly what I follow and is what the little bits of legislation that exist here and there follow. Overall, my experience has been pretty good. There has not been a time I can think of where I have had reason to on reflection question the decision-making that was made. Obviously, at the time when you are seeing a big piece of work that you have spent ages on being scrutinised, I think there is a danger where you can take that quite personally and think: "They are finding faults on this. That is something that I have done wrong." Once you step back and you look at it, it does make sense. My view is that the panel are not there to tell you whether you can do an event or not. They are there to tell you whether you can do an event safely or not. The fact that it currently is effectively apolitical is something that I think is very positive.
Deputy M. Tadier :
That is useful to have that perspective. I suppose can you give us a tangible example of an event you would organise outside the parish hall but in St. Helier ? So shall we take, for example, I do not know, St. Patrick's Day, you put an event on on the Parade. What does that involve from your perspective?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
So that involves a comprehensive event plan, risk assessment, significant amount of stakeholder management, whether that be ... I class the panel as one of our stakeholders that need to be managed, the same way you need to look after residents, you need to look after your suppliers. So you submit plans to them. Generally, we run about 6 months in advance with our very first initial draft, at least certainly to get the dates in for what we want to do. Then nearer the time there will be revisions. You may or may not get called to a panel meeting, dependent on whether the panel have questions on the documents you have submitted. But my general experience, and this is not just my own experience, I have seen it happen with other event organisers, is if your paperwork is good and your documents are good, the panel are pretty happy and they will go: "Yes, that is fine. We can see you have documented how you are going to do that." They will turn up on site and they will do some inspections and that sort of thing to make sure that you are operating it as per the plan that you have laid out, but it would be kind of silly if they did not, would it not? Because they need to make sure that you are doing what you said you are going to. That is how the event process works. Now, after the event there is quite often one or 2 questions or you may in some cases get called into a debrief. That has not happened to me yet, so I do not know if that is luck or skill. But yes, that remains to be seen. I am certainly grateful for the support that they have offered me so far.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Are you involved on the other side? Do you have to ... do you all play a part in permitting certain events?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
So while we are not a named member of the panel, we work closely with the Bailiff 's Chambers in that we are the landlord for a number of different sites. We are a big tick box that we have to be on side. We put some of our own conditions on using our space. So if you want to use our space, you cannot have glass in it, you have to look after it, you have to be a good neighbour to the people that you are around. So we carry quite a lot of weight as well and if we were to write to the panel and say: "Really concerned, really worried about this event" they will support us and they will make sure that ... they will look at our knowledge and our remit as well. So it works quite well in that respect.
Deputy M. Tadier : Yes.
Deputy K.M. Wilson :
Thank you, Connor. That is very interesting. Can you just give us a bit more information and clarify what presence you do have on the panel and how that has changed over time? Have as a result of you being involved been able to change anything over time and in what way?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager: So is that in terms of as a regulator or as an organiser?
Deputy K.M. Wilson :
Both if you could give us a different perspective on each or a perspective on ...
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
Sure. So as an organiser, like I just said, we would come forward and we would obviously answer questions that the panel members have. I do wonder if perhaps when I first started this about 3 years ago there was a couple of times I went to panel meetings and it felt a little bit like: "I am not entirely sure why I am here. The questions you have asked are all in the documents that I have sent you." But what I have noticed in more recent times is (a) you will only get called into a panel meeting if you really need to go to one, and the questions that you get asked are really relevant and are not just noted down somewhere. Because it is ... going to a panel is a naturally slightly stressful environment. It is a bit like this in the sense that you sit usually in one of these rooms, actually, and they are all on one side and you are on the other. So I see how it can be intimidating to people who are perhaps going into it. As a regulator as such, we do not have a permanent seat on the panel and nor should we because we are an event organiser in our own right. I would be incredibly nervous of being in a position where I was marking my own homework, effectively, sitting on the panel, too. Now, obviously in St. Helier we are a little bit different. We are the only parish with an events team and professional event organisers who work for the parish themselves. So it is more about having a dialogue with the individual panel members and that actually works really well. Because if we have concerns about an event that is coming on, we are worried about noise, I am certainly quite comfortable talking to Environmental Health, for example, and it goes both ways. We have a very good working relationship between the panel members, certainly for the events that other people are organising, because a big part of my role is wanting to see successful events happen in the Island. There are lots and lots of event organisers of lots and lots of different abilities, shall we say, on the Island and I want to see as many events happen as possible. Since I started, the volume of events in town has definitely increased and we will continue to support an event organiser so long as they are safe and so long as they are good neighbours to the residents.
Deputy K.M. Wilson :
As a regulator, have you been able to influence any of the legislation that has developed over time?
I do not believe so. I guess what I do say to my team when we are putting events on is we need to be the gold standard. We need to set the bar of this is how you run an event because if we are telling people: "This is what you have to do" we should be expected to do it ourselves. So that is making sure you have done all your letter drops to people, around making sure that you are looking after residents, making sure you are putting on something that is safe. If we are trying to set and enforce a standard, we need to prove that it is not that difficult. A lot of that stuff and a lot of the stuff that is in the legislation, is in the guidance of putting of events, is not difficult. I appreciate that a lot of it does come with a cost. We are lucky in the way that we are funded that obviously we watch the pounds and pennies but we are not relying on every single person coming in and buying a ticket as our main funding mechanism for our events. So I appreciate there is a cost to health and safety and to doing an event properly, but it is the cost of doing an event and if you cannot afford it you probably should not really be doing the event.
Deputy K.M. Wilson : Okay. Thank you.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Thank you. Deputy Andrews , can I pass over to you?
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Yes. Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to ask what difference is there for businesses, for instance, who have an existing licence and they often are holding events compared to entities, for instance, who are just running a one-off event in terms of the dialogue with yourself, who obviously works at the Parish of St. Helier , and how that then correlates with the Bailiff 's consultation panel?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
Sure. So if you have a licence yourself - I think it is a P.49 or whatever, might have the numbers wrong there - what that effectively means is that your venue has been checked to know that you have enough facilities, you have enough services on site for an event to run there smoothly. Generally, where the panel would be involved, in my experience, is when you are doing something somewhere that is not normally as their day-to-day operations running events. Now, you could argue that People's Park is an event space, but People's Park is just a park. It is a bit of grass. Therefore, it needs to have some kind of regulation around it. I guess we probably would not tend to at the parish have too much dialogue with people who are just operating under their P.49 and their licence. That is, of course, until such a time as things go wrong or there is noise complaints or whatever.
[15:45]
That is probably the same with any type of licensing that we deal with. But we interact a lot with those who do public events. I mentioned before that there are all kinds of levels of event organiser on the Island and there are some who definitely need a lot more hand holding than others. That is fine. It is what we are there for. We are there to support people where we can, provided that the end outcome is a good thing and a good event that people will enjoy, yes.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Also in your experience being an events manager for a parish, when would you go through the process of seeking a licence for an event, and in your experience as well when would it not be appropriate, in your capacity as an events manager for the Parish of St. Helier ?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
So it is a little bit complicated because technically civic events do not actually come under the Draft Unlawful Public Entertainments stuff, but what I do is anything I do outside that is bigger than 30 or 40 people I will always go through the panel. That is purely as an insurance, effectively, for us, and also it helps keep me sharp, means that someone else is looking at my plans who hopefully knows how to read them, and it means that we are operating appropriately and above board.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Yes. In your experience as well do you see there being a difference between public and private events that are held in St. Helier ?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager: Yes.
Deputy M.B. Andrews : Yes?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
Yes, I do. You are probably going to want me to explain that now. So public events are generally not for profit, obviously. So I organise 2 of the largest public events in St. Helier . They are Fete de St. Helier and Havre Des Pas Festival. They are large, they take over, but just because something is a public event and is a free event for people to attend, it should not mean that it should not be delivered safely and should not be delivered doing the right thing. I get it. I see it quite often when people will phone me saying: "I have a great idea for an event. I want to do this" and I am like: "Great, have you thought about XYZ?" "Oh, no, I have not. I thought I could just turn up and do it."
"Okay, let us just take a step back." I really do deal with every end of the spectrum, so people like that to people who have fantastic documentation, risk assessments, brilliant teams behind them. We are very lucky not just in St. Helier but as an Island for the quality of the events that we do get here.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Yes. I guess my next question would be obviously St. Helier is very busy in terms of the events that it often will be holding, but how do other parishes compare with the Parish of St. Helier ?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
I do not really know, if I am honest. I know that no one else certainly has a full-time events person as we do. I suspect that, given that it is something that we are doing relatively often and we are working on it all the time, that we are ... well, I would like to think that we are looked on as a trustworthy source of events and people who know what they are doing. Because we are professionals and it is what we are employed to do. I think there is probably a certain amount of give and take as well when you are doing a seaside festival which is expected to have 9,000 people a day. The risk profile between that and a village fete in one of the smaller parishes is probably very different, or I would like to hope so anyway. But again, that being said, it should still be delivered safely.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Yes. I know you have obviously touched upon some of the people you have been dealing with who maybe have no prior experience and you are more or less having to start from the beginning with them. But would you say there is potentially too much red tape involved with the current process, especially for somebody who is new to the event scene who is trying to do something?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
I do not think there is too much red tape as such, but what I do think is it perhaps could be a little bit clearer what the expectation is.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Okay. Yes. Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Following on from that question, is there a perception out there or is there a reality perhaps that the steps that one needs to go through could be centralised in a more user-friendly way?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
Yes, I think so. I think there is sometimes a perception that the Bailiff 's panel are this big scary sort of Machiavellian villain that is going to tell you you cannot do stuff and you cannot be fun. I do not think that is necessarily the case. They are generally there asking legitimate and appropriate questions. Again, I go back to it. There are every level of event organiser on this Island, some who need a significantly larger amount of hand holding than the others. Yes, it should be celebrated and people should be able to put events on, but there does come times when someone has to say: "Hang on a second, what you are doing is not safe. Let us just take a step back" and you probably should not be doing that.
Deputy M. Tadier :
I may be pre-empting a question slightly, but if we put this in the context that the Minister has indicated that he does want to change the current system, the current regulatory system, take it away from the Bailiff and introduce, presumably, an administrative system which is ... either I imagine it is going to be in-house at the department or it will be an independent body which you go to to organise an event. In your experience, do you think there is a need for change?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
I think there is possibly a need for change in terms of making the expectation a little bit clearer, but I would be incredibly nervous about the role of event regulation going into central Government. There is a few reasons for that. Firstly, where it sits at the moment is apolitical, which I think is good. Also central Government are in the business now of organising their own events - they have their own events team - and there is a real danger where you could end up marking your own homework, which I do not think would be appropriate at all and certainly you would be very easy for there to be a perception of there being an unfair advantage to the Government putting on an event as opposed to anyone else.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Okay. Yes. I suppose if I was playing devil's advocate I would say that there is an issue when the Bailiff 's department puts on events maybe or facilitates them and also issues a licence, but I know that is probably fairly few and far between.
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
Yes, it is few and far between and I know that they bring in external people as well for when they put on events, yes.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Yes. No, that is useful. I suppose ... well, I think we might come back to that question about what is envisaged potentially in the new law but, Deputy Wilson , can I pass over to you?
Deputy K.M. Wilson :
Thank you, Chair. Can I just before I move on to my real question just follow up on your comments about expectations? What is it that you mean by that?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
So if you ... it is just not all that clear where to find the information about what is expected to be within some of your event documentation. If you know where to look, you can probably find it, but one thing that I hear from a lot of event organisers is it would be really good if there was some sort of guide. Now, in the U.K. they have the Purple Guide, which I mentioned, which is, I believe, semi Government funded. It is pretty much what the few bits of Jersey legislation that exists is based off of, but something that was a really clear guide of: "When you are putting a public event on here is what we expect you to have, security per person, here is what we expect you to have for this, here is what we expect you to have for that." That is something that would be, I think, really useful for event organisers who are starting out.
Deputy K.M. Wilson :
Right. Okay. So could you just clarify for the public where they go to get that kind of information now?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
So you can find it if you go on Gov.je. There is a public events page and on there is some of the information at the moment.
Deputy K.M. Wilson :
But there are some gaps is what you say?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager: Yes.
Deputy K.M. Wilson :
Yes. Okay. Thank you. So if I could, Connor, I would like to just ask you about the proposed regulations which are due to expire in July 2027. What is your view on the appropriateness of this timeframe?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
I think there is a lot of work to do between now and then but then ... does it need changing I suppose is the bigger question. What I would be interested to know is what is the problem that is trying to be solved here because at the moment that is not clear to me.
Deputy K.M. Wilson : Okay.
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager: So it is kind of hard to say without knowing that.
Deputy K.M. Wilson :
Sure. Yes. So are you saying that you think it is right for these triennial regulations to be constantly rolled over?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
I am no expert in Jersey law. I do not know why they cannot just be made like a normal law that just lasts for ever. I do not understand. It is probably for people with much more knowledge than me to argue over. Yes, the point is we do need to have some form of legislation and some form of law in place because when everything is fine and everything is safe and everything happens, it is not a problem, you do not need it. When things go wrong ... and we are very lucky in Jersey that the risk profile when we do events is generally quite low in terms of the stuff that happens with public order. I am not aware personally in the last ... certainly in the time that I have been in the role of anyone putting on an event and anything happening that has been so bad that someone has faced any custodial sentence or anything like that. But the point is you need to have something to fall back on and you need to have something in the background that can be used as and when it is needed.
Deputy K.M. Wilson : Yes. Okay. Thank you.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
So what would your attitude be to the current Draft Unlawful Public Entertainments (Jersey) Regulations 202-, which establishes a penalty of imprisonment of up to 6 months, an unlimited fine or both for the offence of holding a public entertainment without the permission of the Bailiff ? Is that necessary?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
The law has to have teeth. Otherwise what is the point of having the law almost would be my immediate thoughts on that. Is 6 months in prison appropriate? Is a fine? I do not know. I am not
a law expert or a judicial expert in terms of what the appropriate sentencing should be. What I would probably do is probably look to other jurisdictions, look to the U.K., so look if you do not go to ... if you do a big event and it does not go successfully, then see what the penalties are over there. Now, I know that the legislation initially came in all that time ago when people were having ... I think it was raves were happening in public a long time ago, certainly before my time. From what I understand, knowing the vague bit of history that I do about it, was that it was perhaps pulled together quite quickly. So you have this law. This is something that we have not spoken about, but there are actually a number of laws that you operate under when you put an event on. I am sure the other people who have spoken to you have told you about them. So you have this that you work under. There is the Road Works and Events Law. There is the Health and Safety Act. There is any number of other bits of legislation that you are operating under. So whether there is actually scope for a wider piece of work of, right, we need something specific for events that encapsulates all of this or whether the right answer is to look at the other laws that exist and see if they should be expanded, I do not know what the answer is to that. I think that is probably for you to discuss at some point.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
To your knowledge, has there ever been contravention of permit conditions and, if so, how were they discovered? Not in your time perhaps?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
Certainly not in my time and I think I probably work closely enough with the Island events community that I would know about it. I am aware of events being told that they cannot go ahead because they have been deemed unsafe. I am aware of bits of event infrastructure, the Health and Safety Inspectorate telling them to remove it because it is unsafe, but I am not aware of any prosecutions under the unlawful public entertainments space.
Deputy K.M. Wilson :
Can I just ask a supplementary to that?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager: Sure.
Deputy K.M. Wilson :
Do you know if there are any situations where there would need to be a joint application for an event and what issues may arise from that? So I suppose I am thinking about something like the Battle of Flowers, where you have border issues with different parishes and things.
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
Sure. So generally the event permit, which is what you get once you have gone to the panel, it is ... I sort of joke of how do you show the amount of money that your event budget is. Say you are spending 60 grand on an event, how do you see what 60 grand looks like on one bit of paper? Because obviously you cannot do your event without the permit. So generally you would apply for that centrally, but one of the questions that you do get asked when you go to the panel - I know this happens - is: have you consulted with the places where you are going to be, with the areas that you are going to be in?
[16:00]
I know that this happens because I get asked (a) by event organisers when they have stuff that is crossing over different zones, but also by the panel, who will say: "Just checking that they have checked with you" because they are doing their homework and making sure that everyone is on side. But again that is the bit where my role and the parish crosses into this bit of regulation where we will support and we will help where we can.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Is there a chicken and egg? I do not know if that is what you are referring to with the cost of the event versus the piece of paper. Do you need to ... at what point do you know that you can go ahead with the event? Presumably, when you get the Bailiff 's ...?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
So, yes, officially you know when you get the permit that is when you are legally able to do it. Effectively, it is the same as an alcohol licence.
Deputy M. Tadier :
What is the lead-in time? So when you put an event on, what is the general lead-in time for a new event or a recurring event?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
So a new event runs generally about a 6 month ... we are thinking of doing this and then it sort of flows from there. If it is a recurring event, you can generally be a little bit closer if you are following near enough the exact same plan because it has effectively already been scrutinised. Then you will get your permit in due course before the event starts.
Deputy M. Tadier :
How far in advance do you tend to get the permit?
It really varies. It really varies. Physically, you can get it the week of, but you can also get it a few weeks before as well. There does not seem to be much of a rhyme or reason into when you get it, but you will generally after a panel meeting get a nod of: "This looks okay, this is fine." There will not be any issues with it. The permit is ... I mentioned it before, it is effectively a piece of paper. It is generally what is letting you do it, although an appropriate one and an important one at that.
Deputy M. Tadier :
It is not immediately related, but presumably when you put on an event, say, on the Parade and it is your event, you still have to apply for a licence to ... who do you apply to?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager: For, in terms of?
Deputy M. Tadier : An alcohol licence.
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
So for an alcohol licence, so the way that we do it is when we have ... we get vendors to transfer their own licence into because obviously the Constable cannot issue himself with a licence. So yes, so we get the vendors who are coming in to transfer licences from different venues on to that location.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Have you ever run your own bar, let us say, or would it always be an outside ...?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
It would always be an outside licence. The parish does not hold an alcohol licence.
Deputy M. Tadier : No. Okay.
Deputy K.M. Wilson :
Can I just ask a supplementary to that, Chair, please? Thank.
Deputy M. Tadier : Yes, of course, yes.
Deputy K.M. Wilson :
So if they are going to transfer the licence, does that mean that they suspend their existing trading?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
I am not sure. I do not think so. That is probably a question for licensing rather than me.
Deputy K.M. Wilson : Okay.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Okay. That is fine. Have we got any other questions at the moment? I think I have a few to ask, but anyone else got questions at the moment?
Deputy K.M. Wilson : Not at the moment, no.
Deputy G.P. Southern : No, thanks.
Deputy K.M. Wilson : I am okay.
Deputy M. Tadier :
No. Good. So I suppose what ... you may have partly answered this already because ... and I think there are a plurality of voices around the issues around whether, in fact, there needs to be a new framework. There are people who say the current framework works quite well. I think there are probably users who do not really mind what system they have so long as it is effective from the user point of view.
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager: Yes.
Deputy M. Tadier :
But are there any elements you think that could be addressed in terms of quick wins or other issues if there is new legislation coming forward? It could be directly to do with entertainment. It could be alcohol licensing as well.
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
Yes. Yes, I think alcohol licensing is perhaps a different discussion. The whole notion that we have to transfer in someone's licence for an event is completely bonkers. You are transferring it from a venue that is ... I have never quite got my head around it. I do not understand why we do not have a system, whereas in the U.K. you license the individual rather than the premises. That would be the way that I would certainly do it, so you know that the person who is there, who is running the alcohol concession, is competent. In terms of quick wins, I think the only thing for me would be just a ... and this might be a bit selfish but it would just be somewhere that has a more clear guide of: "Here is exactly what the expectation is" because it is often a role that I end up fulfilling is supporting some event organiser with: "Right, when you go to the panel, here is what the expectation is going to be. Here is what you should do. Here is what you should do." It is not a problem. Arguably, it is kind of what we are there for because as officers of the parish, if we cannot give people a hand and support them, then something is going a bit wrong. We are grateful to do it, but it would be really helpful if it was documented somewhere.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Do you think the panel could frontload its permission? Does that make sense? So I know there is a difference for a parish putting on an event because, like you said, the risk element is reduced. You can carry the risk. But a private event organiser might need to ensure ticket sales before the event can even be advertised. So have you got any thoughts around that?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
Yes. You see it at the bottom of event posters, do you not: "Subject to Bailiff 's permission"? Yes, it is a really interesting question. How do you mean frontload?
Deputy M. Tadier :
Well, I mean I guess guaranteeing a provisional permit much earlier in the process so that you can then start to organise the event.
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
From a practical point of view, I am sure if you were as an event organiser to talk to the Bailiff 's Office and say: "Look, I really need to get together" and you had your paperwork and you had your stuff in order ... because if I am ... putting the documentation together for an event is not difficult. There is just a process that you have to follow and there is just certain boxes that you have to tick. That is all there is to it. Oh, you need to make sure you do it, by the way. I think you can work out pretty quickly by reading an event plan or a risk assessment that is drawn up by someone whether I am going to be getting phone calls at 2 in the morning when they are rewriting it or not. I think in real terms you can probably guarantee that an event will generally happen pretty early on. I know that does not really answer your question, I do not think.
Deputy M. Tadier :
No, no, I think it does. Good. I think that is all I have to ask. I do not know if you have any other questions.
Deputy K.M. Wilson :
I suppose the only thing for me is in your view what benefits would be derived by bringing the legislation forward in a shorter timeframe?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
Would it perhaps lead to more certainty for event organisers? I mean, large-scale event organisers generally work 2, 3 years in advance at least. If they do not know what the legislation is that they are going to be working to, it is a bit like doing a jigsaw where you do not have all the pieces or a picture of what you are putting the jigsaw together to look like.
Deputy M. Tadier :
I mean, I suppose one question arising from that is: can you envisage any or have there been any scenarios where you might have put an event on or you know someone who might have put an event on, say, in a much shorter scale of time but has not been able to do it because they did not have the lead-in to respond to a certain event? I suppose that football is a good one. So, if you find out that England or another team has made it into the final of the World Cup and you want to set up an event, would you be able to do that in short order?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager: Yes, and I have done it. So, yes.
Deputy M. Tadier : Was it a problem?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
No, it was not a problem. The thing that I kind of touched on before is the panel are not there to say whether an event can happen as such or not. They are there to determine whether an event is safe. Dependent on the scale or the size of what it is that you are doing, you can do that relatively quickly. Also, there is probably a certain amount to be said for the ... if you are a known entity going to the panel, so you are a well-known event organiser, for example, you have a track record of doing good events, I would not suggest that you are looked on more favourably than others, but what I would say is there are some event plans that I get that are an absolute joy to read because everything is ticked off and everything is covered off in it. There are some that leave a lot to be desired. I think if
you bring the experience and the knowledge to event organisation it is not actually that difficult. Whether people come or not, that is a different matter, but it is not necessarily that difficult. Also I think it costs £40 for an events permit. For that you get all of the officer time to scrutinise your event effectively. You get the police to turn up if they are needed. Certainly, for the bigger stuff the police will have a strong police presence. You get quite a lot for that £40. If you were in another jurisdiction in the U.K. you have to pay every police officer that attends your event. I am glad we are not in that position here.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Okay, good. Thank you for coming. Have you got anything you want to ask the panel before we finish?
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager:
No, not at all. Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity.
Deputy K.M. Wilson : Thank you, Connor.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Thank you for your time again.
Head of Engagement and Town Centre Manager: Pleasure. Thank you.
[16:10]