Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel

Marine Spatial Plan Review Witnesses:

(Private Hearing)

Monday, 2nd September 2024

Panel:

Deputy H. Jeune of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity (Chair) Deputy T.A. Coles of St. Helier South (Vice Chair)

Deputy A. Curtis of St. Clement

Connétable D. Johnson of St. Mary

Deputy D. Warr of St. Helier South

Witnesses:

[14:05]

Deputy D. Warr of St. Helier South : I am Deputy David Warr .

Connétable D. Johnson of St. Mary : David Johnson .

Deputy A. Curtis of St. Clement : Deputy Alex Curtis .

Deputy H. Jeune of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity (Chair):

Thank you. Just for the transcript, would you be able to introduce yourselves as well?

I am  the fisherman, obviously.

I am  .

Deputy H. Jeune :

Fantastic, thank you. So today, just to give some logistics, please help yourself to some water first, if you would like to have some water anytime during the time with us. We are going to have our discussion transcribed and that is why we have got the microphones, but it is totally up to you whether you would like this to be a public or a private meeting. What this means is that the transcript will be sent to you ahead of anything so that you can review it to see if there are things that are misinterpreted et cetera, so that you can see if it is correctly worded, but also whether you want to, on the transcript, be anonymous or put your name. Secondly, whether you would like to publish that transcript on the website or not is completely up to you. What we will do with that transcript is we will obviously review it as part of our input towards our final report. Then again, how you would like that transcript to be mentioned or not within the report is also up to you and then that will be reflected in the report. We also have some external advisers as well, expert consultants who are helping us with reviewing the M.S.P. (Marine Spatial Plan) and everything that has gone into that. They will be seeing the transcript as well, whether it is anonymous or private or public, so they will be reviewing that too. Happy for you to say how you would like it now or you can think about it. You will be provided with the transcript within 48 hours and then within 5 days - but hopefully sooner, if possible - you will send it back to our colleague over there, Anna, who you have been liaising with, to say yes or no to the transcript. We also get it as well, to review it from our side. We are hoping to publish our report by 14th October. You get to see it - as part of the witnesses - ahead of it, within 5 days before that, so again, you will be able to see the report and see whether your points have been reflected or not within it, whether anonymously or not. The debate: the States Assembly will have the debate whether to agree the M.S.P. on 22nd October, and that is the point where all the States Assembly will look at the M.S.P., but they will also look at our report and our recommendations. We may even do some amendments. We have not got that far yet, but they will look at both our input from Scrutiny and then obviously from the Minister's point of view of the M.S.P., and then as a whole we will decide whether to vote on it or do amendments or not vote on it at all. So that is the process. I hope that is clear.

Yes.

Yes.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Yes, okay. We really have not developed any particular questions. We really wanted this to be as free flowing as ...

Yes. So, what we have done here is basically a couple of things that we have written down so you can maybe look at it and then ask me questions on the job that we did.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Yes, perfect. We have put the map up here as well so that you can have ...

There is a map, yes, and we have got a map here as well. So, things that are concerns for me, so that is the ...

This is the comments that  wrote when the public were invited to comment on the plan. You have got one, which is also the letter that you submitted to the Scrutiny Panel, so it is basically the same letter and then we received the email back saying: "Would you like to come for a further chat?"

[14:15]

Then what you are concerned about is the response from ... or whoever wrote this, you know, the M.S.P. consultation, the comments back on the back of his response is what you are concerned about.

Yes, exactly that. Yes, because I am kind of like in that smaller fishing sector as well, what does concern me is we might just be overlooked: "Oh well, that does not really matter to them" and we do a lot, mainly all the wet fish in the Island, probably between 5 of us that do this type of fishing.

Deputy H. Jeune :

That is probably good. Apart from the Connétable , who was on the panel before, the rest of us are new to the Scrutiny Panel from April, so it would be really great to understand a little bit, to just explain what you exactly do and then that will help us in the definitions, because there are a lot of different types ...

Yes, types of fishing, exactly.

Deputy H. Jeune :

... and it would be really useful just to start with that.

This is why I have more involved as well because ... so anyway, this is my ... I will make sure I give out the right ones. Yes, have you got yours?

Yes, that is your copy. So, this is the comments off the back of the response that he has received, so he has explained what he does, his type of fishing. It is not dredging, it is not trawling, it is fishing with nets and rods. So obviously we understand the M.S.P. is focusing on the dredging, which is a completely different type of fishery and that is nothing to do with what  does.

Yes, and which I have not done before.

 has a small boat, just goes off in the local waters using, as I say, nets and rods.

Lines and rods, yes, so just purely for wet fish, line fish, and there are about probably 6 other boats that almost do the same as me, although they have got pots to fall back on.

We had better say what wet fish, so wet fish ... unless you know.

Deputy T.A. Coles of St. Helier South (Vice Chair):

No, it would be good for the transcript as well. Because I am not a fisherman, it would also be good for me as well.

So, my main thing is bass, mackerel, bream, then in the winter it will be mullet, pollock, red mullet, so that would be my main sort of fish that I catch. At this time of the year, more I am sort of on the rods and the lines, do not really net much in the summer, and I am mackerel, bream, and bass at the moment. That is what I will be catching, so what you see in the market, if it is fresh, it will be coming from probably 4 or 5 of us. That is what it will be.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

So, I get the concept of line fishing, but your nets is one that I am not necessarily overly familiar with. How sort of deep do they go? Do they ...

With the nets, the raise that we have is about 14 foot high from the bottom. The net sits on the bottom and then we use 100-millimetre mesh, so any bass that would be 41 and under - we catch 42 - they will go through that size. That has been proven by the fisheries because they have done lots of tests with us to see, because they were sceptical as well if it was going to work. They said: "Yes, it has been a really good survey." So, it has been quite good to see that it really works well, but we cannot use them in deep water. I do not have hydraulic equipment anyway, but if we were pushed out to deeper water, you just do not catch anything. It just does not work. The tide will just flatten the net and that is that.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

You say it sits on the bottom. Is it ...

Well, it does. It has got like a leaded line on the bottom ...

Deputy T.A. Coles :

Okay, so just a heavier line?

... and a floating line on the top.

With corks on the top.

Deputy D. Warr :

So, it does not trawl at all, it does not drag, it just sits?

No, it does not move at all. No, you just put a little anchor either end and that is it.

Deputy D. Warr : Sure, that is it.

It is about 150 metres of net, so it is not like ...

Deputy H. Jeune :

Where do you go within the space? What is your main ...

I can sometimes fish almost all around the Island because I have got a trailer for my boat as well, but most of the time I fish anywhere from L'Etacq to Grouville . Because I am based in town, I am happy to go that way or that way to those points, and then I have got my other fisherman friends. I have got one from St. Brelade . He fishes basically from St. Aubin all the way up to Plémont, then I have got another fisherman friend that is based in the Grouville area, and he will fish anywhere from basically the Eco Tower right the way through to probably Grève de Lecq. So, you know what I mean, there are boats, then another one fishes from Grève de Lecq who is not quite as full-time as us, but he will fish all that area.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Yes, so you have got kind of different areas that you would ...

Exactly that, yes.

Deputy A. Curtis :

Right now, how far, roughly? So, you are all basically covering off different parts of the Island, based on where you moor?

Yes. Say if you were to block off St. Ouen , then my mate would have to come my way, or if it was at Grouville area, then my other mate would then have to come my way, so this is the effect that it would have. It would be quite difficult.

Also, the weather affects it, does it not, the wind? For example, in a westerly wind you will go to a different area to fish.

Yes, so if it is a strong westerly, 5 to 6, I can get out from town and sneak up like the edge of Belcroute or whatever, just get a little day in like that if you needed to, but if you could not, you would not be able to. There is not a chance.

Deputy H. Jeune :

What are you worried about from ... I have just read your submission, which I believe is very similar to the one that you then sent to us as well, right?

That is right, yes.

Deputy H. Jeune :

The response that the Government sent is saying basically this does not affect the ... so the Marine Protected Areas ...

Have you read this now?

Deputy H. Jeune :

Yes, I have just read it now.

What worries me is the swim areas, so if they use the swim areas to stop us fishing, which might be a totally different law or rule, then that will be it.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Okay, so it is more about the next stage, so it is not really the Marine Protected Areas, it is more about what they have kind of put in, which is these recommendations around netting and also that ... yes, so netting. Okay.

Yes, because obviously the swim areas could be anywhere around Jersey, like obviously you have got them ... have you got the plan with you there?

Yes. Do you feel that you come into contact a lot when you are fishing with other ...

I try my extreme hardest to keep away from anglers and swimmers, so I will put my nets out in the evening when it is getting dark. Technically really when I want to do it is when it is raining and windy, so you do not have those people out and about. Even at the weekend, I will not fish at the weekend if I know loads of people are out there. There is just no point.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

Scare the fish for a start, smashing them with speedboats and jet skis, yes.

Yes.

Exactly that, yes.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

So how close to the coast do you normally fish?

Well, you have to go fairly close. This is the problem, so you have got this swim area here up in Belcroute. I might just go like along that edge in the winter and then obviously Portelet is closed off completely, but I do not go there too often because my mate fishes up that way, so I would not be fishing. But, I mean, everybody has a sort of section they fish. That is the problem. I am not just here to fight my corner, it is for the other fishermen as well, if you get what I mean.

Deputy T.A. Coles : Yes.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Yes. Does everybody do that kind of mitigation of trying not to fish ...

I feel so.

... with stakeholders and the other users? Because this is, I think ...

Yes, I do feel so. But, I mean, we get obviously a lot of bad publicity with the rod anglers. Last year I went to put a net out, I had already paid about a third of my net out and I saw a rod angler on the rocks where I was going, so I stopped and pulled the net back in and went off somewhere else because I did not want to ruin his evening. So, we are not just going to go and do that sort of thing, but they do not like us because obviously they want to catch the fish that we are catching.

Deputy D. Warr :

But they are not making a living out of it.

No, no.

Deputy D. Warr : That is the difference.

For them it is just a hobby.

We do get quite bad publicity, like when a dog eats a hook.

Deputy D. Warr :

Yes. We have had something in the paper the last couple of days, have we not?

They say: "Oh, it is from commercial gear." Well, I pretty much can tell you it is not from commercial gear. It will be a rod angler casting his rod, losing the line with a bit of squid on the hook and the dog will go and eat that, so we get all of that all the time.

Deputy D. Warr :

Yes, tarred with the same brush.

Yes.

With your nets and rods and lines, what is your long-term plan? You are still seeing lots of fish? Do you see that there is a change in what you are catching?

No.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Because the M.S.P., a lot of it is talking about the future generation, like it is about sustainability. How are you seeing that within ...

Oh yes, it is still going. I mean, this year the mackerel have been just amazing. There has been more fish than I have ever seen.

Deputy H. Jeune : That is interesting.

There is bass; there is lots of bass. I have had a lot. I mean, I could show you some pictures, but I have had a lot of really good bass this year, so it has been good, bream and tuna. As you know, the tuna, but we do not catch tuna.

The fishing you do is sustainable, is it not?

Yes, yes.

If something is undersize, you let it go so it can carry on. It is not like it is ...

Yes, everything is sold on the Island.

... caught in a trawl or something like that, when you have bycatch, and it is wasted. You only fish to order, like the markets ring and say: "Can we have X amount or kilo tomorrow?" and we try to go for that, so yes.

Yes.

Deputy A. Curtis :

If these kind of further action points produce ambiguity and uncertainty, do you think that the idea of these Marine Protected Areas to stop the more intensive - let us say damaging - forms of fishing, are they in themselves good to have for you as a kind of a line and netting fisher?

I cannot really say, if you get what I mean.

Deputy A. Curtis : That is fair.

Our fishing in Jersey though really is sustainable compared to when you look at other fleets in fishing industries. If I showed you my boat and then I flicked on to one of the boats in France, then you will see and be like: "Well, yes," but that is a different story.

Yes, the quantities they catch and everything.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Yes, I know. It is interesting, you are saying specifically you sell to order, and you sell on-Island, so like you are saying, you can then let go of the sizes.

Oh, that is right. Exactly, yes.

Deputy H. Jeune :

If you get too small, you let them go. I think it is interesting, because I suppose we have been focused a little bit on the Marine Protected Areas, which are not necessarily at the moment what you are concerned about. You are concerned about the reviewing about netting and the review about the commercial static fishing near angling spots. I thought that was an interesting point, that you were saying that it is the commercial versus the recreational and how you get that balance right when there is more and more recreational. I see it because I am a sea swimmer, so I see a lot.

Yes. So where do you go swimming?

Deputy H. Jeune :

North, Bouley Bay, and then around there and Bonne Nuit.

Yes, so you would not really see much activity around there, would you?

Deputy H. Jeune :

On the angling, there is a lot. You see them all on the north coast. There are much more paths down when you are walking. You can see more worn paths down to the north than there ever has been. I can see that that is a concern, so we hear you on that, and then how do you get that balance right?

That is right, yes.

Deputy H. Jeune :

I suppose it is for us to look further in this review: what does that mean, to review commercial static? It does not mean it is going to go either way. They are going to review it, but what does that mean, I suppose.

But then, you see, the problem is ... and the whole fishing industry, the whole fishing fleet, they are all nervous and concerned. No one is investing in their industry because they think this could all be finished in 2 or 3 years. It is not the fact we cannot catch fish because we can, but we just know that if something was done the wrong way, it would finish it. A lot of people do not understand that we have to fish these areas. There is no other way. We cannot go: "Oh right, we are going to go and net out there" because it is not going to work, you are not going to catch anything.

Deputy H. Jeune :

I suppose then that comes to process, about marine resources, how the Government interacts with you and the industry as a whole and how plans are developed accordingly, because again, at the moment it says just "reviewing", it does not say where it is going to ... which side it is going down into, so I suppose it is then how the process is going to happen. In your experience, how do you feel about the development of this M.S.P. or in the future how do you feel about your interactions with the Government and marine resources and how ...

Obviously, we had Don Thompson sort of leading the J.F.A. (Jersey Fishermen's Association) before and now he has stepped down, so we do not have any representation at all now. So, unless we represent ourselves, we ...

Literally, because there is nobody. There is no association, is there?

A law could come in and we even would not know about it until it was in. That is the problem that we are facing. It is uncertain.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Yes. So, nobody has stepped in yet to ...

No, and there is a lot of work to do. The problem is because there is so much that goes on, you do not get any thanks for it. You almost get ... you know what I mean? Like poor Don, he would do his bit, but then everyone would be like: "Oh, you have not done this properly, you have not done this" so no one wants to take that on.

It is a thankless task, is it not?

Yes, it is.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Is it because there are different ... you know, in the industry it is different, there are different ways of fishing, I suppose. Again, the M.S.P. is picking up maybe some but not covering others, so it is different.

Yes.

Do you feel that there is tension there within the industry?

Yes, I think there is.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Can you speak with one voice is what I am trying to say, I suppose.

Well, no, that is the problem. That is exactly the problem. The fishermen are not united together as one unit.

[14:30]

Obviously, the dredging has become quite lucrative in the last few years because the French have seeded their waters and there is loads of scallops compared to what there was. They have put permits on the Jersey fishermen now. The ones that have boats now have been permitted and then that is it, it is capped at that, and then like with mine, with the bass we are capped at permits. I think for what type of fishing we do, there is probably 6 or 7 of our type of permits, so everybody is like ... you know what I mean, if you have got something that they have not got, they are like: "Well, we should have that" and so it is very difficult.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Your interaction with the Government again, if the fishing association did it before, how do you feel about that in the future? Do you feel you are ...

Yes, it would be good to have one person to kind of keep everything together, if you know what I mean.

There is nobody, so you feel like you have to fight, and you have to stand up and sort of speak for yourself, do you not?

Yes.

You cannot go through an association or anything so ...

The Connétable of St. Mary :

In fairness, that is difficult for Government then too, is it not, if they have got no one ...

Deputy A. Curtis : To come to, yes.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Yes. How many of the lookalikes to you? Pardon the expression.

Deputy A. Curtis : What is that?

Six.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

How many people fish in the same way that you do?

Like I say, probably about 5, I suppose, but all of them have pots to fall back on. I do not, because I did lots of potting up until 4 years, 5 years ago and then I just wanted to do something different. I started off doing this when I was 15, what I am doing again now, so yes.

Potting is too hard, is it not, physically? I mean, it is a young man's game.

Well, it is. Yes, it is a young man's game.

Deputy H. Jeune :

I do not know if anyone else has got any questions or they are thinking and reflecting.

Deputy D. Warr :

Yes, I am reflecting on what you are saying there. I mean, there are interesting points around the industry does not seem to be able to speak as one voice, which is obviously a really impossible thing

to do. I just want to come back to the idea of the numbers you are saying your fish have increased, you know, the mackerel you were talking about. What do you think has been a contributory factor as far as that is concerned? Is that ...

I would say with the bream, they closed off areas for the French to trawl them, like down the west of the Island, so that is probably where the bream have come back a lot better.

Deputy D. Warr : Sure, sure.

The mackerel are just one of those things, I think, you know what I mean?

Deputy D. Warr :

Some years it is great and some years it is not, sure.

Some years, yes, and other years ... because we have got a huge amount of sand eel in our waters and whitebait this year, so if you came out with me, you would see how many sand eels. Sometimes you are there fishing for the mackerel, and you have got sand eels just swimming all around the boat, which you did not used to have that. I think that is why the tuna are in our waters as well now because everyone thinks they eat the bigger fish, but they like the sand eels.

Deputy D. Warr : Easy prey.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Sand eels. Do you think that is because of the French, with the new T.C.A. (Trade and Co-operation Agreement), the new agreements with the French fishermen, that these permits have been put on them specifically?

No.

Deputy H. Jeune :

It has got nothing to do with that?

No, because they have got probably more permits than they used to have when we were in the Granville Bay treaty, probably as much or more. Because obviously they were made aware of it so much more, they were like: "Oh, we have all got to get permits."

Deputy H. Jeune :

Yes. I was just trying to get to whether this increase is related to management.

I think it is just our waters are heating up for the mackerel.

Deputy H. Jeune :

It is heating rather than ...

Obviously, the tuna, we never had tuna in our waters ever.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Yes. It is a climate thing rather than a management thing is really what I was trying to get at.

But I think the bream are the management thing, because years ago the French really, really used to target the bream. Now, like I say, there is that breeding area off past the Paternosters. There is a breeding area down that way, where they have closed off another one down the west and another one down the east. I think that is a big factor because bream are so tightly packed when you catch them, and they were catching like 20 tonne a night.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Do you see the benefit of having these Marine Protected Areas, the ones that are being proposed, for example, to help in the future with this management and having nurseries, where you get bigger fish, for example, when you catch them?

See, our fish just come and go, so the bass, they just move. Obviously, they banned Portelet, but you would not get a bass that lives in Portelet. The fish that do kind of tend to stay where they should stay is the rockfish and probably pollock. All the rest of them, they move. The mullet move on. The mackerel are there now, but I bet you they will be gone within a week or 2 and you will not see them again, you know what I mean? The areas that you are stopping off there, the only thing that does

concern me is how come it is only done in our 3 mile and not outside in our 12 mile? Well, obviously you have got the 12 mile and you have got the medium line and everything, but that is the only thing that does concern me.

Deputy H. Jeune :

What do you mean by that? Just because that is language that I do not ...

Obviously, all the areas are just these bits. Why is it none of these bits, if you get what I mean, why is everything sort of ...

Deputy D. Warr : Close in to the Island?

Yes.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Yes. I think it was because those are special habitat areas, so it is more of a special habitat to different species like seagrass and kelp and things rather than ... where other bits do not have those special habitats, which will have ...

Has it been surveyed though?

Deputy T.A. Coles :

Some of it has. They made marks of areas for the future survey, for the maerl beds especially, where they said: "Needs better surveying, but we found characteristics that would support it" sort of thing, so it might expand into that area, it might stay where it is, depending on what future surveys say. I think there is a depth issue, so the seagrass, the kelp and the maerl beds ...

Deputy A. Curtis :

Do not grow in that depth.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

Depth, yes. So, they are trying to protect the areas from being trawled, then to disturb the bed. So, this is why the mobile gear ... for me, like I said, I am not a fisherman. It is. first question to anybody

on this: "What does mobile equipment mean?" because a net you can put in your boat, you can take it somewhere else.

Yes. Mobile, they put it down and they pull it along, so it is moving as they are fishing it.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

Yes. It is good, it works for the industry, but obviously when you have someone like me, like I say, I am not part of the industry, I have got to read it and I have got to understand it. That to me was not overly clear. Again, with pots, pots do not count as mobile gear because they sit on the bed.

Yes, yes.

They go up and down, yes.

They definitely do not do any damage at all, pots. I potted for many years. It is just up and that is it.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

Yes, up, and straight down and the occasional dive to rescue one.

Yes, exactly.

Deputy A. Curtis :

I mean, the 2 areas that you are really concerned about obviously have come back and the response said: "Well, you should not be worried, basically this does not affect you" but you have identified 2 areas that, should they decide to, would affect you if they said: "Okay, around angling spots this will not happen" or: "For safety reasons, this will not happen." What do you want to happen, in the sense of what would you like to see change in the industry or what is your feeling as to where it should go? Is there a better way to word things or is it ...

I feel that for me personally, if anything was to change and things had to be done in those areas then it really should be a seasonal thing, where maybe the winter months you could do such and such, but not so much in the summer months, if it had to be done.

Deputy A. Curtis :

But you do not think there is the evidence there that says it has to be done?

I do not think so because, I mean, have you ever had problems with nets when you have been swimming?

Deputy H. Jeune : No.

No, so when I ask people, it is ...

You have not caught a swimmer yet, have you?

... kind of making an issue that probably is not ... no, I have not caught a swimmer yet, not that I know of.

Deputy H. Jeune :

But yes, to the lines (rod angling lines).

Like I said, sometimes...yes, the lines, exactly. They are way worse, and they are getting snapped off on the shore, like that dog that was caught in St. Aubin's Bay in Belcroute. They had just had a big fishing competition that weekend and they showed the rocks where it has obviously got snagged on that rock, snapped it off and the dog has gone down and eaten the bait, and then they said it is a commercial long line. I am like ... do you know what I mean? It is ...

Deputy A. Curtis : Yes.

Deputy D. Warr : Yes.

Yes, we are respectful. See, the whole problem is as well there are a few people that go netting that are just recreational, so they will put their nets out in the middle of the daytime and they will pull them up in the middle of the next daytime, so that people have had time to see all this and everything else. That is what we need to avoid, things like that happening.

Deputy A. Curtis :

But that is terminology and licensing, is it not? So you are licensed, so there is a ... whatever this further work has in it, you might be concerned that they are just going to lump everyone in together and say: "Well, this is an unsafe practice" whereas they have kind of mechanisms to do stuff for you that they do not for the recreational people, you know?

Correct, and they are not necessarily educated and aware and have experience of, you know, where to flick your line, your rod, where it will get caught and snapped and you lose your hook, whereas fishermen, you do not want to lose your gear because it costs money.

You see so many people that go down there that do not have a clue how to even use a rod. They get set up, then they cast, they forget to put the bail arm on, it all goes and just snaps and keeps going, the line, if you know what I mean.

Deputy H. Jeune :

It is a very good point, this balance in this terminology and the licensing. I think it is something that I would say one of the big things ...

Yes, and we do get lumped together and kind of slip through the net, so to speak. It would be our living. You could guarantee that would put me out of business. There is no question.

Deputy D. Warr :

On that point, so if you saw a 10 per cent fall in your business, how much ... I am a business person, but like ...

How much could I lose? Deputy D. Warr :

Yes, how much can you lose before you go: "Honestly, it is not worth waking up in the morning and getting out on the boat"? How much more ...

Yes. The problem is that we have lost quite a bit already, so we are not allowed to catch small-eyed ray because the U.K. (United Kingdom) does not catch small-eyed ray, so we are lumped together with them and we had like absolutely ... in fact, we had more small-eyed ray than when we were banned from it, for some reason. I do not seem to see as many now. It is as if they have just left our waters.

Deputy D. Warr : Sure, sure.

We have not caught them because we have not been allowed to catch them, so that, for instance. They will take, but they never give back. Obviously, we have got this influx of tuna at the moment and what they are eating, they are eating all the other fish and that. We are not allowed to catch them. Now, why do they not say: "Right, okay. You can catch those, but just for the local market" so you are not going to be ... even on a tagging system, like: "Right, we will give 100 tags out", even if you had to buy your tags, so then at least people who do it are serious and then it would be just for the local market.

Deputy D. Warr :

So, it is kind of flexing to demand?

Yes, but they take. They never give us anything. We do not get anything back.

Deputy D. Warr :

Sure, sure, so it is flexing to demand?

Yes. You know, we are not asking for anything, we are just asking to be able to fish properly.

Deputy T.A. Coles : And safely.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Obviously taking your concern to heart, but again back to what my colleague said there. He simply said they will review it, but I think the Government will always say they need the opportunity to review, so I just do wonder whether you are rightly concerned, but whether you need to be as concerned as you perhaps seem to be. That is my only point, really.

Yes, okay.

The Connétable of St. Mary : Is that fair enough?

Yes, yes.

Yes. I think your concern is you read this and say: "Oh, this does not affect you now," so the M.S.P. will come in and it will affect the dredgers and everything and then this will come in. I mean, will it be another process/consultation for all these other actions that have been ... because, I mean, we have read through all the comments - there are 154 comments or whatever - that the public have said about, you know, dog-friendly beaches and dog-only beaches. How will that happen? Will that be another whole process, do you think, or will it just kind of ... no, we will go through it all again then for this, is it, or ...

The Connétable of St. Mary :

I think in my time - or prior, before - I seem to recall they had different rules for netting and putting the nets down and the tides take it, that sort of thing ...

On the beaches, yes, that is right.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

... and captures. That is going to be onward going, I think. That goes through it fairly briefly, but ...

Yes, so all these other points that people are raising, and then it was saying like making bays for swimmers or the anglers, that would be a separate extra bit of the M.S.P. then, will it? Will it be like phase 2, stage 2 or will it just happen without anybody having any input?

The Connétable of St. Mary : It would not just happen, no.

Deputy H. Jeune :

No, I think it would not. It is something that we can definitely ensure with our recommendations, something that you have brought to us and we, as the Scrutiny Panel, in our report can absolutely bring attention to that. Like they said, at the moment it is focusing on the M.P.A.s (Marine Protected Areas), but anything such as where they say they are going to review, especially when it is related to economic, that link between the commercial activities and recreational anything else, that we could discuss whether we put in a recommendation to say the review includes consultation with the commercial. I am looking back at how Government does things. I would assume that they would, but it is something that we can reiterate, if we wanted to put that in as a Scrutiny ...

Deputy A. Curtis :

As we discuss that, we may want to think about whether it is clear enough - whatever the decision, whatever post-review is - who makes that decision and who they have to agree that with, whether it is just a Minister, whether it can be an officer or whether it has to be the States Assembly, because I presume that is an uncertainty as well. You do not want to see a plan that in essence gives carte blanche to someone who ...

Yes, one person.

Deputy A. Curtis :

Or perhaps not even to one person, but to somebody, just to a department, you know, that then means that you do not feel that there would be a mechanism for recourse or for contribution and ...

Deputy H. Jeune :

We can take that point away.

Deputy A. Curtis :

We can take that feedback.

Deputy H. Jeune :

We can take that feedback and discuss it. We have other witnesses coming this week and we also have the Minister for the Environment on Wednesday as well, which we can also ask these kind of questions.

[14:45]

We already have a reply within that - potentially have a reply - so we can see how that all plays out to help with the report, so that is something we can definitely put, because we hear you. As the Connétable said, you know, it is in the future. It is something not to be worried about now, but it is something of concern for the future. As you said, everybody is nervous. We hear your message for that.

Yes, they are, everybody.

Deputy H. Jeune :

That is something that we can put into our report, that that is something they need to be very clear on, on how the processes will be ...

Yes, because it is worrying. No one knows how to move forward at the moment. Everyone is going: "Oh, do we ..." and we are getting people saying: "Do you think we should pack up?" but ...

Yes. Perfect, that is great. Thank you.

Deputy D. Warr :

Can I just come back very quickly on this commercial and recreational? Are there people who are almost technically commercial but saying they are recreational? Is there ...

What you are asking me is do they go and catch fish and sell it?

Deputy D. Warr : Yes, absolutely.

Exactly that, yes. So, we have had to pay a lot of money for our licences and, yes, it does happen.

Deputy D. Warr : That has happened?

It pushes the price down.

Deputy D. Warr : Sure, sure.

I mean, I was not going to moan about it at this table now, but ...

Deputy D. Warr :

No, no. Because my question is: is it regulated? Does somebody go out and knock on the door and go: "Hang on, where did you buy those fish from"? I mean ...

It is meant to be.

Deputy D. Warr :

Right, to come back to the point.

I have spoken to the fisheries, and I said: "Why do you not?" and they are like: "Oh, it is a lot of work to do, you know?"

Deputy D. Warr :

Because this is one of the points we have been discussing, about how these rules are checked, making sure they are followed.

You have got some people out there, while I am mackereling and I am catching literally hundreds of them, and then alongside me, with 2 of them on the boat at the same length of time, and I go and they are still ... and I think to myself: "What are you doing with all these mackerel? You are on a JY boat."

Deputy D. Warr :

Sure, sure.

So, there is that to it, but ...

Deputy D. Warr :

Okay, I think it is just worth registering.

Thanks for asking that question. I mean, I was going to bring it up and then I said: "I will not bring it up."

Deputy D. Warr :

No, no, I get it. I totally get it, yes.

Deputy H. Jeune : Well, thank you.

The Connétable of St. Mary : Yes, that is fine.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Has anyone got any other questions?

Deputy T.A. Coles :

The only thing around that was going to be what volumes, the difference between what ... is there a specified limit, the crossover between you are recreational to commercial? Is there ...

Like I say, if you have got a JY boat, which is a recreational, you are not allowed to sell any fish.

Deputy T.A. Coles : Okay, so it is there.

You are allowed to keep, I think, 20 bream - I am not sure if there is a bag limit on the mackerel, I have not looked into that - like 5 turbot, do you know what I mean?

Bass is 2, is it not, per person on the boat?

Yes, the bass is 2, but even if you have got a J number and you do not have a bass permit, you are only allowed 2. So, J numbers are allowed the same as a JY number on the bass if you do not have a bass permit.

Deputy H. Jeune : Oh, I see.

See, there is a lot of ...

Deputy H. Jeune :

So, you have to get a bass permit to be able to ...

Oh, you just cannot get one. They do not just give them out. It is not like ... you cannot even ... like in the U.K. they have bass permits attached to their licences, so when someone wants to buy a bass permit, they buy a licence with a bass permit attached to it, but they did not do that over here with us. They just ... if you had a track record, they give you a bass permit. If you did not have a track record, you could not get a bass permit. The argument was from the young ones: "How can we have a track record to get a bass permit?"

The Connétable of St. Mary :

On that basis, what is your concern though? If people cannot catch bass, then ...

My concern for the youngsters is they cannot get things they need to be able to carry on, so they cannot have a bass permit. That would be how they would start their fishing career, going and catching a few bass, because a pot at the moment costs about £150 to put in the water, so if you needed even just 100 pots, that is £15,000 just ... you know what I mean? So, for a youngster who is just starting off, then he has got his licence, which is going to be a minimum of £12,000, his boat, a minimum of £20,000, and before you have even started, he is £50,000 in for ... yes.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Yes, so the fishing that you do with wet fish is the way for youngsters to enter into the market and start ...

Yes, to start, because you can start relatively ...

Deputy H. Jeune :

... and bass being one of the things, which is the ones with permits. Again, that is an interest, to see if there is going to be further permits on different fish, if that will be introduced, but also ...

The other fish, there is no permit, so you either have a wet fish licence for a boat and then you can go and fish for a certain amount of lobsters and whatever wet fish, bar bass. You need bass in there as well because you have got to have it. You cannot just be relying on bream and mackerel and that because there is not really much point.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Bass brings in the money.

Yes.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Yes, okay. That is a really good, interesting point as well to bring in, thank you so much. Is there anything else that you feel that you would like to ...

No. That was a brilliant meeting.

Deputy H. Jeune : Great.

Deputy D. Warr :

Thank you for your time.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Yes, thank you so much for your time.

Thanks for seeing us.

Deputy H. Jeune :

Like I say, Anna will get in contact with you, especially on the discussions about anonymity or website or not in this discussion, but as I say, it will all flow into the review. It will go to the external advisers and, as I say, we will see how our report comes. As I say, our report will also contain recommendations for the Minister or potentially amendments to the M.S.P. Everything that you have said we have taken with real interest to see, and not just now, of course we are the Scrutiny Panel for this going forward, so what you have given us today will not just sit for the M.S.P. but for anything that comes up on fishing in the future. It has helped to educate us as well for things, so thank you.

Yes, that is really good, because like I say, we have got to kind of support ourselves now, otherwise we are ...

Deputy D. Warr : Yes, 100 per cent.

Yes.

Deputy D. Warr : Great.

Lovely.

Deputy H. Jeune : Thank you very much.

[14:51]