Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel

Review of the Marine Spatial Plan Witness: Scallop Divers

Wednesday, 18th September 2024

Panel:

Deputy H.L. Jeune of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity (Chair) Deputy T.A. Coles of St. Helier South (Vice-Chair)

Deputy A.F. Curtis of St. Clement

Deputy D.J. Warr of St. Helier South

Connétable D. Johnson of St. Mary

Witnesses:

Mr. H. Jones

Mr. B. Titterington Mr. T. Woolley

[11:45]

Deputy H.L. Jeune of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity (Chair):

First of all, just to explain, we are recording to help with the transcript because also you will be sent the transcript before anything will happen so that you can see what was said and if there is anything that you want clarification on. We also get sent the transcript for our side and we will say as well. That is why you have these microphones here and it is really up to you as well whether you want the transcript afterwards to be published on the website or not or just kept for the panel and for our reporting. Also you can put that on the website but whether you want your names put to it or you want it to be anonymous.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Yes. Well, I think it is best to publish it because then more people will find out about it.

Deputy H.L. Jeune : Your names as well?

Mr. T. Woolley: Yes, names is okay.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

You can all decide individually as well once you have seen the transcript. So it is up to you completely and we are completely open to that. My name is Deputy Hilary Jeune and I am the chair of this Scrutiny Panel. If we go round and ...

Deputy T.A. Coles of St. Helier South (Vice-Chair): Deputy Tom Coles . I am the vice-chair.

Deputy D.J. Warr of St. Helier South : Deputy David Warr , panel member.

Deputy A.F. Curtis of St. Clement : Deputy Alex Curtis .

Connétable D. Johnson of St. Mary : David Johnson , the Constable of St. Mary .

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you, and for your side? I know we have got your names but it would be really great to hear from you.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Toby Woolley, scallop diver.

Mr. H. Jones:

Harry Jones, scallop diver.

Mr. B. Titterington:

Bob Titterington, scallop diver.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you, and thank you so much for coming. We are just in the middle of drafting our report at the moment, so it is really great that we have been able to find a time to hear from you as well. We have had, of course, a number of submissions, and from yourselves as well. We have also held a number of hearings with different stakeholders to hear their views as well. We have an external adviser who has given an overview of hearing about the submissions - so they would have read your submissions too - and also listened to the Minister for the Environment and read all the documents and have advised us also on that. We have had an independent adviser who is very expert and has had a lot of experience in developing marine spatial plans or looking at that from around the world. What is going to happen, so that you understand where your submission and what you are going to say today to us and our discussion today goes, you will get the transcript of this meeting. That will then feed back into a report. The report from us will be published on 14th October and you will get, ahead of that time, the sections where you have fed into so that you can review and again see if there is anything that you see is not reflected correctly in those sections. On 14th October we will send our report to the States Members. The idea is we will then be debating it as the States Assembly on 22nd October. How we do that is that we see what the Minister has put forward, which is obviously the draft Marine Spatial Plan, and then States Members also see our report and what we have recommended. We may have even put in amendments, we have not decided yet. It will depend, once we close this in gathering information, whether we want to do amendments, so we will also be debating those amendments. Then we vote on it on 22nd October but hopefully, as you can see, our report is weighted with what the Minister puts forward and the debate - and hopefully all the panel members will be speaking in the debate - reflecting on what we have heard and from the report as well. I hope you see where your input will come. Other than that, we have not got a script, so really it is to hear from you and what your experiences are. So, over to you.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Have you got the plan itself, the map?

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

I have got it from last time. We have this one. I do not know if everyone has got it. I just have it in my notes.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Is it possible just to start off with that?

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

You can see the white cloud was what was the original during the first consultation. The blue block is what they have said now and then the ...

Mr. T. Woolley:

There is the territorial waters, yes.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Yes, there is the territorial and then the ... because this was given to us by ... and then you have got the no-take zone and you have got the maerl beds as well and the proposed no-take zone.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Okay, yes. So I suppose I am speaking on behalf of the whole 3 of us. The biggest concern for us with the ... the ban is good but this one triangle here is a prolific maerl bed and we have seen maerl all over the seabed. We have even got a the bit we need to show you.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

That is the phased ... it is not now.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Yes. We have had trouble with the dredgers at that point. We have been diving there and one of the dredgers has actually tried to trawl over the top of us, so it was dangerous. That is basically the scallops get funnelled in and all the maerl beds are in there with all the juvenile fish and when the dredgers go through it, it just decimates the whole thing. So if you got rid of that bit, it would stop the wildlife funnelling in through the Ecrehous, past the bank and into the main area of the Ecrehous. That is a big concern with that.

Mr. H. Jones:

We want that banned.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

Is it possible to just hear a bit about how and when you are going out and where you are going as well? That is one area just obviously for some of us ... I have spoken to a few scallop divers but obviously to hear for my personal ... that is your main area.

Mr. T. Woolley:

That is our main area to dive around the south end of the Ecrehous. To be honest with you, it looks like ... I am not sure what fishermen have been in here to choose the plan but it looks like they have just pointed out the spots that they want to keep dredging and they have pointed out there, one there, there. It is sort of like they are the places that they go mostly so they do not want them banned no matter what happens to the seabed, which is a bit of a concern really. Also down here it was meant to come all the way out, was it not?

Deputy H.L. Jeune : Yes, the white ...

Mr. T. Woolley:

Yes, and then it got changed, did it?

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Yes, the current Minister changed it. There has been a change of Ministers, so when the consultations happened, the draft plan was with the white and then after the consultation I suppose the Minister would say it is because of the consultation, there was the changes and so now where the blue is is where it is proposed. Then you have got those different things. You have got what is right now and then what is the phased that needs further research.

Mr. T. Woolley:

You can see that the prolific maerl beds are still here but on this you can still see that there are maerl beds but ... when is it opening? 2030?

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

We have been told by the Minister that the proposed marine protected areas that are the blue - which will happen, there is already legislation so it can happen quite quickly - I think he said between 12 and 18 months and then there are those phased next steps, which needs more research and we have not received ... I think we have got a letter today, which I have not read yet, and we had asked that question.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

In the public hearings we have had with the Minister, we pushed him for the evidence base that he has taken out east of Les Anquettes, east of the Ecrehous from the area. He identified obviously it was a compromise, and you are welcome to listen to that, but he also said that they wanted to do further evidence gathering to ensure that there was maerl.

Mr. B. Titterington:

Yes, but let us get back to the maerl a minute. My father used to train the police diving team and in 1970 maerl was known as a prolific ground. That is 54 years ago. We have been trying to stop this maerl getting smashed up. It hardly grows. It grows about a millimetre every 20 years and if you take a full hand like full of maerl, you will have 60 juvenile species in that. What the dredgers have just said there, we are arguing about must have a ban, is full of maerl and they are just smashing it to pieces all the time. So if you are saying you are the Scrutiny Panel and you are looking to see if this is fit for purpose, it is not.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

So the dredgers have said to us they are using lighter gear now.

Mr. B. Titterington: Rubbish.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Well, if you go down the harbour, they have actually just bought a new dredger and it has got 6 dredges either side. So that is twice as many as most of the dredging fleet, so they are not taking any precautions when dredging.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

When you are on the seabed, is it just clear as day what is going on?

Mr. T. Woolley:

Well, we go 100 metres where the ban is and then do a drift. You can go on the line where the ban is and do a drift and then you just see absolute decimation. Everything is upside down and shells, scallop shells, crab shells. We did get a video and I can record the damage that they do compared to the current maerl beds and you can see because the maerl once it ... this has been out the water now. We found when it came up. It is white but when it is alive it is purple and all round where it has been banned you see all purple maerl but then once you go into where the dredgers have been it is churned up and it turns into white maerl and it is all broken up and you do not really see much life around there, which is sad really.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

So white maerl is dead maerl?

Mr. T. Woolley:

White maerl is dead/dying maerl, especially if it has been taken out of the water, so it is dead, yes.

Mr. B. Titterington:

Actually if you feel it, you can see it is not very strong and a dredger banging over that is just going to break it down. I think the fish use it to go inside for protection.

Mr. T. Woolley:

You can see there is holes inside there. You can see the holes inside there and the little juveniles and eggs go inside it and that is where they live until they grow bigger and they can go out into the open water.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

I suppose what is interesting from our point of view is how the fishing industry as a whole is seeing this. Is it splintered, because we are not hearing ...

Mr. T. Woolley:

Basically, I think the overall is there used to be an association J.F.A. (Jersey Fishermen’s Association) and the person who ran that was completely on the dredgers’ side, so he would stick up for the dredgers, but now the J.F.A. has completely gone, so there is no J.F.A., there is no fishing association, which we had never ... he had been diving for ...

Mr. B. Titterington:

I was in the association but they removed me for speaking against dredging, but Don Thompson is an ex-dredger and he was in charge of the association.

Mr. T. Woolley:

I have been diving for 10 years, he has been diving for 9 years and we have had no contact with him to speak about how the fishing industry is going for scallop divers.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

When the consultation first came up, did you input as scallop divers? Were you part of the discussions?

Mr. T. Woolley:

With the M.P.A. (marine protected area), the original M.P.A.?

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Yes, I am thinking of the Marine Spatial Plan but, yes, there were the moments of public hearings, et cetera, and public workshops.

Mr. B. Titterington:  

We did not actually go to any of those meetings but we did have constant contact with Blue Oceans, is it, that Sam Blampied has ...

Deputy H.L. Jeune : And Marine Resources.

Mr. B. Titterington:

We have sort of followed these dredging bans over the years and they have always been ridiculous. If you follow them and you flash back through how they come through, they put dredging bans on the main island of the Minquiers and then they said they had protected it, but nobody is ever going to dredge over the main island of the Minquiers and they included those as dredging bans. This is just yet a further example of them shifting. I do not know why we are protecting bream when it started all about maerl beds and bream migrate every year.

[12:00]

What they have done is shifted out to there and say they are protecting bream and moving away from the maerl just to get their percentage up, but it is just a play on words. It is not a proper ban, so again it is not fit for purpose at all.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Marine Resources at the public hearing were telling us that they have a group, like a marine ... what is it called? There was a specific group where they sit with a number of stakeholders on that group that they regularly interview, not just for the Marine Spatial Plan but that they are constantly in contact and discussions with, so there is a constant dialogue. They were telling us that there was this beyond the public workshops, which I suppose was only once, and then there was a few more I think with the current Minister.

Mr. T. Woolley:

When were the public workshops?

Deputy H.L. Jeune : May 2023.

Mr. B. Titterington:

They were well advertised.

Mr. T. Woolley:

I am sure we would have been ...

Male Speaker:

Earlier than 2023.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

No, May. Well, maybe October 2022.

Male Speaker: Yes, 2021.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

No, because I went to them, so I think it was October. I think it was early 2023.

Mr. B. Titterington:

We did go to one meeting with the divers but it got hijacked into talking about grants. We specifically came to talk about dredging bans not money and grants and the way forward for people to get money. After that we sort of retracted a bit because we did not get a word in really.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

We are just trying to get to where do you sit and where do they hear your voices, I suppose is our first thing on the consultation side, because that is one of the areas that we are reviewing: have they taken everybody’s voices into account and how have they balanced that out? This is why we are trying to ask where. Are you in regular contact with Marine Resources in general or on this specifically so that your voices are heard within that wider discussion? Of course, we are hearing different voices have different, you know ...

Mr. T. Woolley:

We have not had too much say. We have spoken slightly with Blue Ocean ... Blue Marine, but other than that we have not had much contact at all.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Okay, that is good to know. The second one, which you have talked about, and I do not know if the panel has further questions, is what your practices are and what you see. The evidence is really interesting about the impact on the seabed, because I think that is our biggest ... I suppose it is interesting because the Minister has said that the areas that are now going to be phased in play, so need more research, because they think that there is not enough evidence that there are maerl beds there, so basically saying some of that pink area is not ... they do not know, they do not have enough. Have you seen the maerl beds there?

Mr. T. Woolley:

Yes, we have seen the maerl beds, definitely all down Gorey. There is maerl beds all along Gorey. Nearly all of Gorey is maerl beds but at the Ecrehous at least down the south ... we have not done so much at the north but down the south at least 100 per cent where that triangle is there is prolific maerl beds and you can see the fish life down there. Also if you go a bit further down you can see the scrape marks and the rocks being turned over. It is not a nice sight anyway.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Sorry, you said earlier on that you have got video evidence of that, have you?

Mr. T. Woolley:

No. I have got video evidence but it is hard for somebody who has not been a diver and seeing what the bottom looks like compared to once a dredger has been there. I can get a good video of a strong dredge but once the dredge has been a few weeks, everything is all turned upside down but if you do not know what a seabed looks like, you cannot ...

Mr. B. Titterington:

If you do not know what it is meant to look like you cannot really judge, is the problem.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Yes, except the fact of all the dead shells and dead crabs and lobsters. That is the difference.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

It would be interesting to hear from Marine Resources, because they say they need more research but maybe working with yourselves gathering that information by having the pros and cons, they are the ones who are the experts. They will understand, not laypeople like us maybe but as they are trying to assess, and I think that is something that is interesting as well.

Mr. B. Titterington:

Hold on a minute. More time? We have just said 54 years we have had and you have only got to Google it. It is all over the internet what dredging damage looks like. It is well documented, so really just saying we need time is just a waste of time really.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

When you go scallop diving in an area that clearly has not been dredged, the first is when you turn up to somewhere that you have seen recent activity, what is the impact on your stocks and your business?

Mr. T. Woolley:

A big difference, but it is not the stocks that we are worried about because I think with the weather changing and no one can tell why but the scallop stocks are getting better, so it is not a fact of the dredgers are ruining the scallop stocks. It is the fact that they are actually ruining the seabed to produce more scallop stocks and not just that, the other shellfish that live down there and the juvenile fish is the problem.

Deputy T.A. Coles :  

What sort of depths are you diving out there?

Mr. T. Woolley:

Around here it is not deep. It is only between ... on the low tide it is maybe 12 to 15 metres, on the high tide 20 metres maximum. So it is not shallow, so that is perfect ground for us to dive on but they can dredge in 100, 200 feet of water, so it is not a problem for them.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

The local dredgers are worried about being forced out into deeper water with the weight of their equipment and stuff like that, that it would be harder for them.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Do you not think that that is the form of fishing that they chose? We have chosen a sustainable way of fishing and they have got an absolute destroying sort of fishing, a destructive way of fishing and unsustainable. So how can they say we cannot go there but the scallop divers can go there when we are only handpicking the ones we want and they are smashing up everything, the small juvenile scallops, crabs, lobsters, seahorses? There is plenty, I could go on and on and on about the amount of fish that they kill.

Mr. H. Jones:

Like the soles. We have not seen soles this year.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Yes, we have not seen soles this year, plaice and many shellfish.

Mr. B. Titterington:

It is indiscriminate, is it not. A dredger goes along and there is nothing he can do. Even if he wanted to be a conservationist he cannot because of the form of fishing he is doing. It is quite rich when they go on Channel TV and then they say they are nurturing the ground and there will be nobody else like them when they go. Well, good. Come on, what are they doing? They chose quite clearly to buy a dredger, smash the seabed up and then they moan when they get told not to come in the shallows. In France, you see, they have a ban on dredging for scallops in the summer because they cannot really control their dredgers, they have got so many, so they just do not let them come inshore or they do not let them bring them ashore, scallops, and that is how they control it in France. The other thing is our size limit for scallops is tiny. We have asked for it to be put up and again the dredgers say we need the agreement with the French, but now we have torn up the Bay of Granville treaty, this is a unique opportunity to start saying you do not need the agreement of the French any more. There is a chance for conservation here, which is what we have been waiting for for a long, long time. They have hidden behind the Bay of Granville treaty for many, many years.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

What is the size limit of scallops in Jersey and what would you like it to be?

Mr. T. Woolley:

It is 102 at the minute but even if you added it up a centimetre, 1½ centimetres, 2 centimetres, that would still ... most of the dredger scallops are small little scallops. We handpick our scallops. Our restaurants only want the big scallops, so we are okay with that. We are sustainably picking out the big ones and they are not.

Deputy T.A. Coles :  

Are all your scallops sold on Island?

Mr. T. Woolley:

Yes, to merchants, local restaurants, local hotels. He has got one merchant. Local hotels, restaurants and then the public. Public people buy them.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

What sort of volumes do you do?

Mr. T. Woolley:

It varies. When the roes are there probably a third as much. We do okay but nothing compared to the quantity that the dredgers get.

Mr. B. Titterington:

I estimate that Steve Viney probably catches 10 times what we catch in a day every day, to give you an idea of the quantity.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Yes, and there is 3 of us.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

I was going to say, how many more of you are there, if you see what I mean?

Mr. T. Woolley:

There is 3 of us diving and then there is probably another 4 or 5 scallop divers on the Island but then there is the same amount of dredgers, more dredgers.

Mr. H. Jones:

And that is just one man as well.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

There are 7 divers as far as you know?

Mr. T. Woolley:

In the whole Island, yes.

Mr. B. Titterington:

There would be more if there were not so many dredgers. Obviously they suppress our industry through the price and damage to the ground. There is a direct conflict between us and the dredgers, no doubt about it, and when they want to carry on coming in here ... they do not need to. They can bank it all if they want in the summer. They just want to come in here because it hurts us again. It is quite personal with them and you can see that.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Coming back to Deputy Coles ’s question about the depths, we heard it was dangerous for them to go out in deeper water. It is more dangerous from the wind and the weather, et cetera. How shallow are maerl beds? Are they all in quite shallow water or can they vary as well?

Mr. B. Titterington:

I have never seen maerl in deep water. I have also never seen it out west because of the swell, so it tends to be around shallow ground along this sort of edge around here.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

There are scallops further away?

Mr. B. Titterington: Yes, all very prolific.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Scallops grow from between 15 foot and 600 foot in every sea in the world, so there are scallops ... I would not say everywhere but if you know the spots, you will find them wherever you go, but we cannot get to those places. We are on aqualungs, so we are limited to 60 and 100 foot and we only get 10 minutes on the bottom, so it is not viable.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

We are trying to work out if it is only in these places or there are other areas to go.

Mr. T. Woolley: For them or for us?

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

For them or for everybody.

Mr. T. Woolley: For everybody, yes.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

You have technical difficulties.

Mr. B. Titterington:

We are much more limited.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Yes, we are a lot more limited to the coast and to the shallow parts.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

So if you cannot ban dredgers, what would the solution be? Obviously one of the issues around this is about cost of food, cost of production. We have talked about the high cost of living in Jersey. Let us give an example. If everybody ate scallops and it was all just hand-dived scallops, you would be restricting people’s ability to consume scallops as opposed to a cheaper solution, which is the dredger. I get the environmental consequence of that but what I am trying to say is: is there a balance between all of this trying to get costs down a bit in a sustainable way versus what you are doing? I do not know if that makes sense, that kind of question. They are volume-led, therefore that ultimately means they are going to bring the cost of the production down.

Mr. T. Woolley:

I think the dredgers will really be around for a while because you cannot just wipe them out completely because it is an industry but, yes, they can go all around the Island. They can go out to the deep down south, west of the Minquiers, they can go all of these places. We cannot because it plus 100 foot depth, so it is not viable for us to go there.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

One of your solutions would be that you protect this area for the likes of what you are doing and then you extend other areas for dredgers to go to and you say actually ban dredgers from this particular area but they are able to do the same work, as it were, collect the same scallops in different areas?

Mr. T. Woolley:

Yes, because in most places around the deep there is no maerl beds and maerl beds is what we are trying to protect. It is not just about the scallops that we are catching. We enjoy seeing the other fish, the little bream and the little lobsters and the crabs and stuff, but you cannot see it until you have seen it.

Mr. H. Jones:

That is where they live.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Yes, you will not be able to notice it until you see it and it is not a good sight anyway.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

This obviously impacts other areas of fishers who then capture the bream and the lobster, et cetera. Do they see a correlation with that? Is that why we are seeing a reduction in lobster, for example, being caught? Can we see that? Is this the main areas where they are?

Mr. B. Titterington:

It is part of the areas now that are smashed to pieces and they are not productive. So, yes, definitely that is affecting the potting industry very badly. I think that goes without saying really.

[12:15]

Deputy D.J. Warr :

How long does it take to recover these sites once a dredger has been over them? Is it years? Is it 2 or 3 years?

Mr. B. Titterington: Several years.

Mr. T. Woolley:

At least years, maybe decades because it takes so long for a little bit of maerl to grow.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

Do you think in these sort of areas where you dive and the maerl beds exist that there would be the possibility for a corridor that dredgers could operate in, preserve the area around it but then they would be fixed to a limited corridor where they could do the easier dredging, which obviously costs them less in fuel and equipment? You would still be able to function on either side but they would be safe to dredge.

Mr. T. Woolley:

What area do you think that that ...

Deputy T.A. Coles :

Would an area like that exist in those areas where there is potentially maerl already?

Mr. T. Woolley:

In an ideal world, to be honest, dredging is the worst form of fishing, so in the future, in 10, 20, 30 years’ time.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

You were saying earlier that you cannot see the industry just disappearing because it is going to affect livelihoods but you are going to get to a point where you say: “Okay, we are going to start winding you down. You are the skipper of that boat. You are the last licence holder. As soon as you retire, that licence retires with you. In these interim years, this is your corridor.”

Mr. T. Woolley:

This is your corridor and you can only go there.

Deputy T.A. Coles : Yes.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Yes, that would be a good idea. It depends where it is because if it is in that one area there, that is a prolific ... that is the one ... basically it looks like the person who has done this ... not done this but it would have been a dredger has picked the spots that he knows that we go and they go and they have gone: “We want this bit, this bit, this bit and this bit and not to be banned”, which is not fair really because that is not why we are here. We are here to protect the ground and in shallow waters like that there is no going back once they have dredged there.

Mr. B. Titterington:

I think also you have got to realise that a dredger catches 10 times what we catch. He is making a lot, lot more money and it is quite rich for them to go on to Channel TV and say they are going bust. They are making a lot of money out of this, there is no doubt about it. They are making money out of destroying the seabed. To say they cannot go out in rough seas, these are big boats, 40 foot boats. Our boat is 7 metres, so it is very rich for them to say they cannot go out to sea in rough weather. What is it like for us, the 3 of us on a little boat? So I am not wearing that at all, but they seem to have the upper hand when it comes to organisation and going on Channel TV and going on the paper and somehow people believe them.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Also they have got all the facilities, the shelling plants, the vans to removal, but hopefully in the future it can change.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you. That is a very clear message and something that we will definitely ... as a panel we have heard from all different stakeholders, so we will absolutely take this into account when we are discussing this. I suppose it is that assessment of the differences between what is now, what is going to be protected - well, as soon as they can do that within 12, 18 months - what needs more research, which we have heard from yourselves and others regarding that, and which ones it will continue to be for that. We focus on this and the marine protected areas but in the other bits of the Marine Spatial Plan there is a lot of other areas, which we have not heard much from. One of the things is about sustainable labelling. Have you discussed that further?

Mr. T. Woolley: Sustainable labelling?

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Like a label, kind of like what is the blue fish.

Mr. B. Titterington: For the ormers? Deputy H.L. Jeune : No, for all of them.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

About branding and labelling of products to identify that they were hand-dived for.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Yes, we have got stickers. We have got little permit numbers and we have got our Jersey hand- dived permit numbers to stick on our bags to sell, if that is what you are referring to.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

I think the Marine Spatial Plan is trying to say it should be bigger. They should develop it into something very specific, Jersey sustainable fishing, and that covers the wider fishing population, so it is not just for the scallops only. It is for wider.

Deputy T.A. Coles : Yes, the whole catches.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Does that include the bottom trawlers though, because how is that sustainable?

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Well, this is my question back to you, I suppose, how do you develop a ... I am just trying to think of the link between when you have a situation where there is ... how can you define this as sustainable, I suppose. Have you heard anywhere in the world where they have developed ... because, as you said, there is 30 years of evidence on the internet of this way of fishing is destructive to the environment. There are other ways that happens in other issues, like with agriculture and in other industries that have seen destruction of the environment and have adapted technology accordingly. Do you see that there could be, there are things out there that could be linked?

Mr. H. Jones:

They have done it in England where they have put a box out where they are allowed to dredge there for a certain amount of time and then the box changes to a different spot. Have you seen that on the “Trawlermen”? That in its way is sustainable if you can call dredging sustainable.

Mr. T. Woolley:

I think also a dredger will never be sustainable but if it is going to be as sustainable as possible it needs to go out into the deep where there is no maerl beds, there is not much fish life out there except the scallops and they are moving on moving sand. At St. Brelade s beach, for example, the sand on top of the beach is just moving sand. It is not fixed sand. So when they go out to the deep 150, 200 foot, that is normally what the bottom is like, so when they dredge that they can pick up the scallops and they may do a little bit of harm but over time it will come back. That is nowhere near as bad as when they are going over the maerl beds. Once they have destroyed the maerl beds, that is it, finished.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

That was my question, is there a period over which it will recover, and you are saying no.

Mr. H. Jones: About 10 years.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Longer than 10 years. It is a very, very long process for the maerl ...

The Connétable of St. Mary :

So the system you are referring to just will not work here?

Mr. H. Jones:

The box probably will not work here, no.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

From your description, do you see them going out to those areas as well?

Mr. T. Woolley:

They do go out to the areas occasionally, do they not? They go out up to the Banc Desormes up near Guernsey and they come down on the west side, Les Minquiers. They have got plenty of spots they can go to but ...

Deputy T.A. Coles :

Are these the Jersey dredgers?

Mr. T. Woolley:

The Jersey dredgers, yes. We do not see the French dredgers, unless they come in at nighttime, which we think that they might do.

Mr. B. Titterington:

Well, that is another point. At Les Ecrehous the French do come in, they have hereditary fishing rights, and they probably come more than the Jersey boats. I really do not see any gain to Jersey in letting them smash up our prime ground. So if this ban was brought in, including that little triangle there, it can only be good for Jersey.

Deputy D.J. Warr : What about policing it?

Mr. T. Woolley:

Policing it? The fisheries could police it, can police it if they can get out there enough. It is a hard one to police, is it not, really, because the A.I.S. (automatic identification system) can pick them up where they go but whether they can turn them on and turn off is another question. You never know, but we have definitely seen even up until ... there is a rock called the Nipple Rock, it is a funny name. Just south of the Nipple Rock we have seen dredge marks right across there and that is well inside the limits. There is no way, nobody is allowed inside there and I doubt that any of the Jersey boats would be silly enough to go in there. I think it would be the French in the nighttime.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

When you see that do you report that to Marine Resources?

Mr. T. Woolley:

We have reported, yes. We have reported but it sort of falls on deaf ears really, so it is hard to ...

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

That is interesting just from a wider scrutiny around Marine Resources and that enforcement angle and hearing that and following up on what you say. Do they come back to you and say anything when you have reported?

Mr. B. Titterington: They note it.

Deputy H.L. Jeune : They note it.

Mr. B. Titterington:

Getting back to the French, though, the other thing about the French, apparently the fishermen tell me now they do not sell a lot to France any more anyway. So the old story was who pays the piper calls the tune. That is not the case either any more. They do not really want to sell to us either ... buy from us, so we are not really getting a lot out of the French any more.

Deputy T.A. Coles : That is Brexit again.

Mr. B. Titterington:

It is, but if that is the way it is going to move, we have got to have some good points out of Brexit and that is one, that we are no longer subservient to them really.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you. I think we have covered all the areas that we are looking into from our side. Is there anything else that you would like to know?

Mr. T. Woolley:

Yes. Do you know roughly when this is planning to come into action, the original initial draft?

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Yes. Our report will come out on 14th October and that helps towards the States ... so all the States Assembly, all the politicians, will come together on 22nd October and we will debate it then, whether there is an amendments from us as Scrutiny or amendments from individual politicians. I know the Minister is not going to put any more amendments. He has said to us publicly that he will not, so it is up to us.

Mr. T. Woolley:

So what you do goes, yes.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Well, no. So that will then be debated and the States Assembly as a whole will vote on the amendments and decide whether they agree with us or agree with an individual States Member or not. That will then feed in and we will then have a vote on the whole of the Marine Spatial Plan. So there will be several votes during that day if the amendments are there. If it is just going to be a report, then it will be a report.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

I think Toby’s question is when is the plan going to come into effect. That is what you mean, is it not?

Mr. T. Woolley: Yes.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

With the marine protected areas that are there and have been designated already within the plan, in the hearings they have said 12 to 18 months, but as a whole the plan is much more of a desire, I think, than an actual ...

Mr. T. Woolley:

The whole plan is a desire.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

The Marine Spatial Plan because there are lots and lots of different elements in it. I do not know if you have seen ... we have been analysing it.

Mr. T. Woolley: Yes, okay.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

About maintaining slipways, all of that falls into the plan, and the marine protected areas are one part, sites of special interest are another, no-take zones. So all of these elements are ... some of it may look like a bit more of a wish-list but some areas are really clearly able to be defined in legislation. So the Les Sauvages proposed no-take zone, if that gets approved on 22nd October, they can act on that within a ... they can have a timeframe on that because there is legislation about no-take zones where other things like maintenance of slipways come into that.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

This informs the next Island Plan as well. That was the aim of this as well. The Island Plan, which is obviously how we manage our land as well from building, environment and all of that, how that works together, this will inform that as well. The idea is it all fits together when that happens, but there is no date on that yet. So, yes, it is a mixture of things that will happen within, I suppose, the next 2 years versus what will take longer and what needs resources for, so more of a wish-list. For marine protected areas and the no-take zone, because there is already legislation there, however the form of what is decided on 22nd October, they can then enact that quite quickly because they do not need to make new legislation. It is already there, so they will add it on.

Mr. T. Woolley:

One more question. What was the reason for the no-take zone on Les Sauvages?

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

It has got lots of characteristics.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

Lots of characteristics on the reef apparently.

Mr. T. Woolley:

What does that mean?

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

There is a big appendix that has all the info about why they are protected areas but I would have to double check that one.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

I think they went through and graded characteristics.

Mr. T. Woolley:

It is a bit of a random one, is it not? They just ... because we do dive in there as well.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

They have weighted the characteristics, so maerl beds being quite high up on the characteristics of what needs protection to help with the environment and also for nurseries, et cetera. That was seen as absolutely the top ... because no-take zones are at the top of all these different ... as Deputy Curtis said, in the Marine Spatial Plan there is a number of different things. Marine protected areas is one but you have got S.S.I.s (sites of special interest), Ramsar, lots of different ...

[12:30]

Mr. T. Woolley:

This whole area is a Ramsar site, the whole Ecrehous, is it not?

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Yes. It will still fall under ... it will still be a Ramsar site. It is then the marine protected area is even stronger, the regulation or the obligations, so that is the difference. You can see there is a kind of pyramid of protection with no-take zones being at the top, I suppose is how they are telling us.

Mr. H. Jones:

That is the main thing to try and get the dredgers ...

Mr. T. Woolley:

That triangle there, that one there is on there ...

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

The phased M.P.A. that needs more research.

Mr. T. Woolley:

The phased M.P.A. is probably the most important of the area.

Mr. H. Jones:

That is where it is a Ramsar site.

Mr. T. Woolley:

The whole thing is a Ramsar site and that is full of ... it is about that thick of maerl there so ...

Mr. H. Jones:

That is our most prolific fishing ground, is it not?

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you very much. I think that is fine.

Mr. T. Woolley:

Have you had any other meetings? Is it just us 3 divers or have you had the dredgers in here as well?

Deputy D.J. Warr :

We have had the dredgers.

Mr. T. Woolley:

You have had them in here? I bet they had a different point of view.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

Scrutiny is supposed to be more evidence-based rather than our personal opinions and I think if you went around this table we could all give you a different preference on how we would like to see this go. We have to collect evidence from actual stakeholders, people who are involved, people who will be involved, try to ignore our political preferences and just see what you tell us and see how we can balance that out against what the Minister is trying to achieve within the M.S.P. and we are basically going to say: “Yes, it is going to achieve it. No, it is not going to achieve it. It might achieve it if you do this.”

Mr. T. Woolley:

The thing about the dredgers, nearly all of the dredgers it is probably their last hurrah. They are getting on a bit. I am not being rude, but a lot of the scallop divers are below 30, so we have got another 30, 40 years of diving and seeing this ground.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

I think they are worried. They have got concerns themselves because a lot of them saw their boats as their pensions. They would get to an age where they were not able to physically do the job any more but then they could sell their boats to the next generation.

Mr. T. Woolley:

The States have offered them money to buy their boats out though, have they not?

Deputy T.A. Coles :

I do not know on that one.

Mr. T. Woolley:

They did, did they not?

The Connétable of St. Mary :

If they talk about compensation, I am not sure if it is ...

Mr. B. Titterington:

The fishing market and fishing boats has collapsed in the U.K. (United Kingdom) and it is not going to come back over here like that. They can forget that one. Buying a boat is not an investment.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you very much. It has been really helpful, so thank you very much. Our officers will get in touch about the transcript and just confirm how you wish to ...

[12:33]